I'm a bit rattled this evening - as I have just heard that "it" has happened to a young lad I have been watching while on holiday this week.

So a lad of around 27/30 with a bit of cash, has gone to a very well established dealer and was sold a very powerful, brand new sports bike (We are talking petal disks,steering dampered, very big "Superbike" here).
Within days he is in company with his mates with their fast cars.....and is to be seen periodically taking off at umpteen thousand revs for a "blast", notably on one occasion, while dressed in just shorts and trainers. He is also observed by yours truly to be not at all happy perched on the bike and to be lacking some pretty basic skills and with a throttle response that didn't seem to do "gradual".

A road was closed and the reports are that he and the bike had parted company for very many yards and that his injuries are "life threatening".

Should I have spoken to him?..............that's one reason why I'm beating myself up at the moment - but an old codger on a old Dullville, wearing full gear in a heatwave? I really don't think we would have connected in any meaningful way.

Should the dealer have tried to not sell him the bike?.........business is business and that was a lot of money.

Did someone on his DAS give him too much confidence?....that's something I really would like to hear from our seniors about.

At the end of the day the cynical truth is that he had a perfect and legal entitlement to go and kill himself - but something sticks in the throat. I know that we can feel smothered by legislation but I can't help thinking that there could be a case for instituting some form of "Advanced" licence requirement for this class of machine......and I'm not inviting unthinking flak please gents! This was an unnecessary serious prang that, at best, will alter this young lads life for a very long time - if he survives.

Just Darwinism at work. No need to beat yourself up about it, why should you feel responsible for him when he isn't?

Originally Posted by BigFella

I'm a bit rattled this evening - as I have just heard that "it" has happened to a young lad I have been watching while on holiday this week.

So a lad of around 27/30 with a bit of cash, has gone to a very well established dealer and was sold a very powerful, brand new sports bike (We are talking petal disks,steering dampered, very big "Superbike" here).
Within days he is in company with his mates with their fast cars.....and is to be seen periodically taking off at umpteen thousand revs for a "blast", notably on one occasion, while dressed in just shorts and trainers. He is also observed by yours truly to be not at all happy perched on the bike and to be lacking some pretty basic skills and with a throttle response that didn't seem to do "gradual".

A road was closed and the reports are that he and the bike had parted company for very many yards and that his injuries are "life threatening".

Should I have spoken to him?..............that's one reason why I'm beating myself up at the moment - but an old codger on a old Dullville, wearing full gear in a heatwave? I really don't think we would have connected in any meaningful way.

What can you say? As someone in his late 20s he's capable of making a rational decision - after all, he's long since the age of joining up and fighting for his country.

As you say, it's unlikely anything you said would have made any difference, and its doubtful he'd have thanked you for it. I really don't think there would have been anything realistic you could have done.

Should the dealer have tried to not sell him the bike?.........business is business and that was a lot of money.

How many businesses really are ethical? There was a local dealer who had a reputation for turning away trade if he didn't think you looked like you knew what you were doing, but he sold up years ago, when his sales plummetted thanks to the cut-price chains like Motorcycle City.

I remember a story about a salesman (working on commission of course) selling a 17 yr old girl who came into buy a scooter an Aprilia RS125 instead... more commission... it was back on a truck inside a week, she'd crashed it...

Did someone on his DAS give him too much confidence?....that's something I really would like to hear from our seniors about.

Two issues really..

First, don't forget pre-DAS, he's simply have wobbled round on a CG125 for 3 days and passed his test, THEN got on the same bike! Would a few days on a CG have prepared him better for for a big powerful sports bike? And remember he might not even have taken any training other than CBT - how many people actually recommend that as a route to getting a licence over in General?

And pre 1982, he wouldn't even have had to take a CBT - he could have taught himself on a 125 and then bought an XS1100!!!

Realistically, having worked as an instructor both sides of the divide, you get far better training for a full size machine on a DAS bike. But... despite the new "trained seal" off-road test, they still don't get taught cornering technique on the open road, which is where many of the fatalities happen.

[EDIT] It's worth pointing out that 40-odd years of accident investigation of cornering accidents still throws up the same issues - the bike would have got round a bend, it was the rider who didn't. All the improvements in bike technology, suspension, tyres, clothing... and the rider still makes the same basic errors.[/EDIT]

Second issue is not the training, nor the speedy access to a full size/power bike, it's the association that's made in new riders' minds that anything less than a full-on sports 600 is a learner bike! They're told they'll "get bored" with anything smaller...

But quite honestly, how you can be bored at 100mph on a 100mph bend is beyond me - and a derestricted Aprilia 125 can manage 100 round a bend! You don't need a big bike to ride fast. You only need a big bike to show off in a straight line.

I'm quite happy to ride the Hornet - it's more than quick enough for me, I'd even be happy with my old GS500 back, the original 1990 one with the genuine 50hp motor and 115mph top end - it was quick enough round the local lanes, and left for dead most of a bunch of 120hp+ sportsbikes going up Mont Ventoux a few years back (including one being ridden by a journo who worked for Bike ).

But try selling that to the latest generation of riders... and realistically it's always worked that way - more hp has always been attractive, just think Vincent and Manx Norton!

At the end of the day the cynical truth is that he had a perfect and legal entitlement to go and kill himself - but something sticks in the throat. I know that we can feel smothered by legislation but I can't help thinking that there could be a case for instituting some form of "Advanced" licence requirement for this class of machine......and I'm not inviting unthinking flak please gents! This was an unnecessary serious prang that, at best, will alter this young lads life for a very long time - if he survives.

Check out the 3rd European Licence Directive... coming to a country near you in the not-too-distant future.

This is one possible scenario:

• Age 17 CBT Provisional A1 motorcycle, Theory & hazard test. Off road test, on road test using 125cc bike. Full A1 licence. Restricted to 125cc 14 BHP for 2 years.
• Age 19 CBT Provisional A2 motorcycle, Theory & hazard test. Off road test, on road test using 33 BHP bike greater than 500cc. Full A2 licence. Restricted to 47 BHP for 2 years.
• Age 21 CBT Provisional A motorcycle, Theory & hazard test. Off road test, on road test using 47 BHP bike greater than 600cc. Full A licence.
• Unrestricted Direct Access will remain but at age 24 years.

That's kind of worst case scenario, it's apparently under discussion whether the advance to unlimited licence should be a repeat test or just "certificated training" along the lines of CBT.

The danger of any test/official syllabus is that it'll merely repeat the same old test "tick boxes" that are being tested by the DSA now but more than once on different bikes and not actually give riders any better machine control or decision making ability where it matters, where they kill themsevles - out of town.

As others have said, don't beat yourself up about it. It takes 2 to tango, he might have had a super-fast sports bike, but he chose to wind open the throttle.

It's sad seeing someone kill themselves, but the alternative is banning bikes. All of them.

Even if you had had a word, would he have listened?

I rather suspect that the problem here is 27yo 'kids', and I speak as one. Or indeed young males of any young age.

My dad has been riding for a few years (isn't what I would call adventurous, but is pretty safe), and he banned me from riding until I was 21. Aged 21, I did my CBT, rode around London for 6 months, learned to ride like a courier (as certified by my DAS instructor, who was a courier) and passed first time on DAS by toning it down a bit. I then got a GS500E because the drum brakes (and tyres) on my CG were dangerous for the speed addiction I had.

Six months later, I borrow my Dad's ZZR6 and buy it off him. 3 days later, I have had an off that put me in a neckbrace and an ambulance. The only reason I survived relatively unscathed was because I buy decent gear (although a cheap buffalo jacket lost me the use of my right shoulder for a month).

Why did I crash? Fundamentally, it was a braking error - no rear brake on a wet road and the front tucked. Why? Because Ride told me I don't need my rear brake. Everybody else said 'use your rear brake' (including Roadcraft - I binned it on an observed ride!!), but I knew better. Or not. And its the same with a lot of yound male riders. They all know better, until they find out they don't.

I learnt the hard way how to be a better rider, (and how not to skimp on tyres), and hopefully, so will your young mate.

If he comes round, talk to him. He might be in more of a frame of mind to listen.

Originally Posted by nick.s

That's the thing, isn't it - it's all about mind-set. I've met plenty of young lads riding powerful bikes who ride fast but stay safe.

Safe?? Or lucky? I know which I was when I was younger...

Problem is that few riders really understand how close to the edge they ride... there's little room for error on the road, 6" one side of the white line and it's a near miss, 6" the other side and you're dead... yet manoeuvres that are inherently risky with little margin for error are thought of as skilled...

Originally Posted by Bobzilla

I rather suspect that the problem here is 27yo 'kids', and I speak as one. Or indeed young males of any young age.

My dad has been riding for a few years (isn't what I would call adventurous, but is pretty safe), and he banned me from riding until I was 21. Aged 21, I did my CBT, rode around London for 6 months, learned to ride like a courier (as certified by my DAS instructor, who was a courier) and passed first time on DAS by toning it down a bit. I then got a GS500E because the drum brakes (and tyres) on my CG were dangerous for the speed addiction I had.

Six months later, I borrow my Dad's ZZR6 and buy it off him. 3 days later, I have had an off that put me in a neckbrace and an ambulance. The only reason I survived relatively unscathed was because I buy decent gear (although a cheap buffalo jacket lost me the use of my right shoulder for a month).

Why did I crash? Fundamentally, it was a braking error - no rear brake on a wet road and the front tucked. Why? Because Ride told me I don't need my rear brake. Everybody else said 'use your rear brake' (including Roadcraft - I binned it on an observed ride!!), but I knew better. Or not. And its the same with a lot of yound male riders. They all know better, until they find out they don't.

I learnt the hard way how to be a better rider, (and how not to skimp on tyres), and hopefully, so will your young mate.

If he comes round, talk to him. He might be in more of a frame of mind to listen.

Looking back now, who would you have listened to at the time, telling you your braking technique was wrong?

before or after the crash? Before - possibly if delivered with an explanation. After - i did the analysis myself

As above, be upset that it's happened - but don't feel blame or responsibility.

If his peers are into fast cars, then you'd have been against many, not one, if you'd said anything.


Warning! Horse 'War Story'!

Guy booked a 'Born Again' course a few years back.

40s, made redundant (in the days when jobs were easier to get), kids left home, big wodge of dosh to spend.

Not ridden since 20s, so did 'sensible' thing by booking a day.

The 'not so' was a deposit on a Kwak 900 sports bike . . .

Day of the course we stick him on K1100RS - sportiest bike BMW did at that time.

On-road, he hardly went over 45mph.

"Not very fast, is it?" he said. Yup, an 1100 RS . . .

Tried to convince him to come back. "Oh yes, I will!"

Never saw him again.

My best guess is he'll have scared himslf witless and sold it in short order.

I hope.

First, sorry about your friend and I hope he recovers.

Originally Posted by BigFella

Should I have spoken to him?..............that's one reason why I'm beating myself up at the moment - but an old codger on a old Dullville, wearing full gear in a heatwave? I really don't think we would have connected in any meaningful way.

I think you should have spoken to him, just to clear your conscience. If we all did this, perhaps some messages would start to get through.

Originally Posted by BigFella

I know that we can feel smothered by legislation but I can't help thinking that there could be a case for instituting some form of "Advanced" licence requirement for this class of machine......and I'm not inviting unthinking flak please gents! This was an unnecessary serious prang that, at best, will alter this young lads life for a very long time - if he survives.

The first thing about legislation is the knee-jerk test. If it's in reaction to a particular event, then there is a very high suspicion that it's wrong. That seems to be your situation.

The second thing is whether it is justified: a piece of legislation is always heavy, costly, and has undesirable side-effects that are often not anticipated. Do the benefits warrant this? There you need to see beyond the emotional bond you have with your friend. Yes, he may be a typical stereotype young DAS crasher. But how many fit the stereotype? How many KSIs would such laws avert? How many thousands of young riders enjoy millions of miles without seriously throwing themselves at the scenery? Quite a few I'd argue, and constraining the majority for a minority of cases always seems wrong to me.

BF, no point beating yourself up about it.

I've tried to talk to younger blokes in our local bike club, despite my ability (I'm often quicker than they are) and experience they tend to belive that they are either invincible, or going to die anyway (as I did at 'that' age). Not talking to him almost certainly didn't alter his destiny.

As mentioned earlier though, if he survives, he may be more receptive to some advice post crash.