"John Whitmore: Help yourself to better driving" thread in "Staying Alive"
Help yourself to better driving Young males might need most coaching, but we can all become better drivers. John Whitmore sets some useful questions to ...

From here

Or to summarise:

Drive like a middle-aged bank manager on the way to the garden centre with the wife.

I suspect your average bank manager isn't thinking about his driving very much at all - probably considerably LESS than the average 20 year old behind the wheel.

It's all interesting introspective stuff, but the major flaw is that it will only appeal to those who are already self-critical about their driving/riding, who aren't the target audience.

---

Sponsor Page XMAS OFFERS Blog Website Courses Riding Tips Shop
NEW - online e-course
The dull copyright bit - feel free to nick it for personal use. If you want to reprint it for your club, I'd like a mention as author. Otherwise hands-off. Full terms
"Force has no place where there is need of skill" Herodotus 450BC

Look up a2om, see who's involved and what their 'audience' is . . .

---

Argue with me: http://the-ride-info.blogspot.com/

Not quite sure what your point is...

"further explore the methods and benefits of replacing traditional instruction with more advanced coaching methods, in order to build a sense of self-responsibility in young learner drivers."

Doesn't says "in the few young learner drivers wealthy enough to afford our training". I read the piece as being applicable to all new driver training.

---

Sponsor Page XMAS OFFERS Blog Website Courses Riding Tips Shop
NEW - online e-course
The dull copyright bit - feel free to nick it for personal use. If you want to reprint it for your club, I'd like a mention as author. Otherwise hands-off. Full terms
"Force has no place where there is need of skill" Herodotus 450BC

Longer reply, hopefully, tomorrow, until then:

http://www.cieca.be/news_en.pp?id=231

http://www.gutefahrt.at/hermes/

http://www.gutefahrt.at/hermes/wp-co...l-29-10-07.pdf

---

Argue with me: http://the-ride-info.blogspot.com/

Skimmed them.

Looks like a steaming pile of pseudoscience bollocks to me

I thought we were coming to the end of the NuLabour 'rell me what to think cos I'm just a pathetic individual' era?

We will tell you what you think next month, after the focus group reports. Gordon is watching - he's sorry about the 10p tax thing, but he is watching

The Cieca Gadget Matrix is actually a useful tool... for instructors... because it helps focus and target training, but it's down to the instructor to work on the relationship with the trainee and how to get the info across

I think the problem here is the idea that anything other than a minority of new drivers/riders will be receptive in the way the writer clearly intends.

I was listening with half an ear to a conversation between two blokes working behind the Screwfix counter y'day about which replica rally car he should buy. I can just see who he'd respond to questions like these:


With what quality would I like to drive? (Smoothness, calmness, consideration etc). Speed, flair, excitement

---

Sponsor Page XMAS OFFERS Blog Website Courses Riding Tips Shop
NEW - online e-course
The dull copyright bit - feel free to nick it for personal use. If you want to reprint it for your club, I'd like a mention as author. Otherwise hands-off. Full terms
"Force has no place where there is need of skill" Herodotus 450BC

It may well be, but as you'll have seen, this is a project to improve driver training - which since ADIs in this country achieve a pass rate of less than 50% could be said to be in need of improvement . . .

Deeper than that, it's working towards learners who learn by themselves rather just doing as they're told. Increasing self-awareness is a major element of that - how often do you read me ranting when someone posts a thread about 'improving' and the pat answer is 'get some miles under your belt' - with scant if any acknowledgement that some riders will never improve on their own however long they ride for because they have little or no awareness of their actions and the reactions. The next 'popular' suggestion is 'do a track day'.

It's also recently been released that the HPT has had no benefit in reducing the crash involvement of new drivers - the very people who it was introduced for.

Driver testing in this country - and 'higher' still the DSA's assessment of ADIS (and RPMT instructors for that matter) is skills-based: fault recognition, analysis, and correction.

As Spin points out, the GADGET Matrix has levels corresponding to different aspects of driver training. At the 'bottom' is 'pure' skills based training, next up is . . . no - Google it

I pointed Spin to a2om because of the people involved, and they way they're approaching training.

Yes, they're not aiming at the 'average' punter. So what?

Yes, W, they have a psychbabblist from Cranfield - but is that a bad thing? I take notice of Maslow's heirachy of needs when planning a training session - does that make me a better or worse instructor, or just one who knows the 'name' of something that 'good' instrcutors do without knowing 'why'?

a2om use psychometric testing IIRC; The DIA (of which I'm a member) are bringing that in shortly to be available for all members to access, probably at additional cost.

They also have an ex-head honcho from the DSA. On their web site was a promo video - with IIRC - interesting comments about the UK's testing regime.


So, Spin, a trainee turns up for a 'bends' course and tells you . . .
"With what quality would I like to ride? Speed & excitement!"

How will you train him?

---

Argue with me: http://the-ride-info.blogspot.com/

Good idea... but why is the pass rate so low? If the ADIs can satisfy the examiners that they are teaching the right things, there is another reason.

It is, of course, money. The instructor who gets 5 trainees thru first time after 50 lessons to get them to test standard is unlikely to get as much business as the instructor who puts the trainees in for a test after 25 and gets lucky with 2 of them.

In which case you completely rebuild the test, away from the examiner sitting there mute ticking off "pass" or "fail" on the sheet as you go round to a "tell me why you just made that manoeuvre" analysis. There will only be a drive [sic] for self-awareness if it is "rewarded".

It wasn't rocket science to work that out - it's "just for learners innit"?

It's of no benefit because it's simply seen as a hurdle.

Do YOU view the fact you've got to sit down and do the HazPer test for the post test trainers register as a hurdle or a learning opportunity? I'd very much doubt you think it's the latter.

As I said, that's maybe what A2whatsit are upto, but that article reads as applying to ALL learners.

It's laudable to want to train to a higher standard - but given the test is based on the standard "a reasonable driver" would expect to see in others, is it realistic to apply to all learners?

Might not make you a better instructor in terms of technical ability but I think understanding the basic theory of training/coaching makes for better results.

How about you answer the question?

---

Sponsor Page XMAS OFFERS Blog Website Courses Riding Tips Shop
NEW - online e-course
The dull copyright bit - feel free to nick it for personal use. If you want to reprint it for your club, I'd like a mention as author. Otherwise hands-off. Full terms
"Force has no place where there is need of skill" Herodotus 450BC

Doesn't that apply to bike instructors too? If so, why the disparity in pass rates?


And with the failure of HPT and the continuing poor record of newy-qualified drivers, DSA will like as not be under the spotlight.

They're already bringing in CPD for ADIs, so why not load more blame on them rather than the test regime?

A mate of mine who's a Dr of psychology pointed out that until something is researched and proven, it often remains just a theory. I believe we discussing the TRL's internal nickname of Det. of the F@ckin' Obvious at the time

I point out that rocket science is simply 'light blue touch paper and stand well back'


I see it as a badly-designed & implemented hurdle. But I didn't develop it, implemented, or justify it. However, the actual development of hazard perception training - research of which was used to justify HPT, is of proven benefit. I believe you were complimentary of the DSA's "What If?" video?

AFAIK that project is eventually intended for all ADIs and all learners.

Which is why - perhaps - in some EU countries an ADI must be qualified at degree-level?


I'm a very polite chap, after you.

---

Argue with me: http://the-ride-info.blogspot.com/

The million dollar question. Managed to finally offload the viffer to a bloke in his late 40s doing the DAS/CBT all-in-one next week. Totally obsessed with BHP, 0-60 figures, how it compares with latest 600s etc etc He'd had the usual advice about 'start with a sports 600 'cos a thou will be too much for you' blah blah blah. He was a self confessed speed-freak. So it isn't just the classic younger driver, although the midlife crisis male may be pretty close. In the end he mostly bought it 'cos he liked the sound, which is fair dues as its why I'd bought it

My angle on it was to push him in the direction of quick steering / countersteering, saying it is the one big advantage bikes have over cars. Hoped it might kindle a spark of interest in technique and developing skills somewhere in among midlife-angst-fuelled speed obsession.

Check the ratio of DAS to 33hp tests. We train relatively few complete beginners. It's not the complete answer but it certainly influences the pass rate.

Could well be!

True... but so often it simply seems to be reinventing the wheel, not simply discovering it's what we've been using all along.

I am - and the Roadsense one. I think they are both good for getting trainees thinking... as I said, I'm all for making trainees think.

But... I've actually had a guy on DAS loose his rag and shout at me "why don't you just TELL ME WHAT TO DO!" because I was trying to draw answers out of him. That's a mature 35 year old, so as I said - what chance with a 17 year old?

Hmmm

Oh yeah... I can just see a degree educated instructor working for peanuts...

Errrr... oops... hang on!

It was a rhetorical question

---

Sponsor Page XMAS OFFERS Blog Website Courses Riding Tips Shop
NEW - online e-course
The dull copyright bit - feel free to nick it for personal use. If you want to reprint it for your club, I'd like a mention as author. Otherwise hands-off. Full terms
"Force has no place where there is need of skill" Herodotus 450BC

Horse mentioned 'do a trackday' as a piece of potentially unhelpful advice...


I do still wonder about making motocrossing a part of CBT. I learned to crash bikes on a farm aged 9 and that it hurts. A lot. Most city-living teenagers and car-driving born agains won't 'get' this.

People cling to what they know cos it IS what they know. Like big muscles wins you a fight. Which is why new recruits at our MMA club get you put against scrawny guys who know how to fight. Screaming in pain with your arm wrapped behind your back teaches you not to rely on preconceived ideas. Classic problem of road-biking though - one mistake and you're dead.