"John Whitmore: Help yourself to better driving" thread in "Staying Alive"
Originally Posted by wasabi Horse mentioned 'do a trackday' as a piece of potentially unhelpful advice... I do still wonder about making motocrossing a part ...

The Spin Doctor · 06-05-08, 06:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by wasabi

Horse mentioned 'do a trackday' as a piece of potentially unhelpful advice...

I do still wonder about making motocrossing a part of CBT. I learned to crash bikes on a farm aged 9 and that it hurts. A lot. Most city-living teenagers and car-driving born agains won't 'get' this.

People cling to what they know cos it IS what they know. Like big muscles wins you a fight. Which is why new recruits at our MMA club get you put against scrawny guys who know how to fight. Screaming in pain with your arm wrapped behind your back teaches you not to rely on preconceived ideas. Classic problem of road-biking though - one mistake and you're dead.

Actually, I rather like the idea of dressing trainees up in bike kit and then throwing them out the back of a Transit at 30mph.

Horse · 06-05-08, 08:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Spin Doctor

I can just see who he'd respond to questions like these:

With what quality would I like to drive? ~~(Smoothness, calmness, consideration etc).~~ Speed, flair, excitement

Quote:

Originally Posted by Horse

So, Spin, a trainee turns up for a 'bends' course and tells you . . .
"With what quality would I like to ride? Speed & excitement!"

How will you train him?

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Spin Doctor

How about you answer the question?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Horse

I'm a very polite chap, after you.

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Spin Doctor

It was a rhetorical question

OK

I'll be brave.

I'd probably use a technique I read about in one of Sir John Whitmore's books, 'Coaching for Performance'.

This involves the 'GROW' sequence to direct questioning, and is:
Goal: What does the trainee want to achieve?
Realism: In the World we inhabit and ride in, is that realistic?
Options: Within that set of two - possibly widely differing answers - what options does the trainee have?
Will do: What will they do, do they have the will to do it?

You'll probably realise that is similar to the 'holistic' approach mentioned in your blog recently:

Personally I prefer a holistic approach, rather than any “tick list”…

Lifted from Wikipedia again:

“Holism (from ὅλος holos, a Greek word meaning all, entire, total) is the idea that all the properties of a given system cannot be determined or explained by its component parts alone. Instead, the system as a whole determines in an important way how the parts behave.”

The key point is that in the holistic approach the system itself only serves as a tool to getting the job done; as I said earlier:

1) you decide what you want to do
Ultimately, if you know what you want to do, exactly which system you adopt is irrelevant so long as you carry out the three remaining steps adequately.
2) you gather information
3) you decide what’s about to happen next
4) you choose a course of action that gives the results you want

That’s it. Simple!

OK, now I know you were relating that to 'systems' use, but it's another application of a similar checklist*.

Pssst: You'll have seen 'GROW' in Steve Dixey's instructor manual, IIRC

* I know how much you love checklists

The Spin Doctor · 06-05-08, 08:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Horse

OK

I'll be brave.

I'd probably use a technique I read about in one of Sir John Whitmore's books, 'Coaching for Performance'.

This involves the 'GROW' sequence to direct questioning, and is:
Goal: What does the trainee want to achieve?
Realism: In the World we inhabit and ride in, is that realistic?
Options: Within that set of two - possibly widely differing answers - what options does the trainee have?
Will do: What will they do, do they have the will to do it?

Pssst: You'll have seen 'GROW' in Steve Dixey's instructor manual, IIRC

Yes, I remember GROW...

I'd do that as far as options, and if that the trainee wants and what I offer don't match up (ie we fail to meld on the "will to do" stage"), then I'd probably recommend a Rapid trackday.

I have that luxury, I can point people at alternative post-test training. When trying to get someone past the basic test, we don't. Whilst I've a lot of time for what I've read of JW's stuff, this really does come across to me as writing for a very limited audience, rather than genuinely practical suggestions to actually solve the issues that he considers in this para:

"Most young men learn to control a car far more easily than they learn to control their emotions. The desire to show off, compete, take risks and be aggressive is their greatest weakness – and the greatest danger."

We're down to a nature vs nurture argument here - I'm sure the issues are far deeper than simply "a driving problem".I'm also interested that he specifically excludes women from that analysis - I seem to recall a report floating around last year that the fastest growing category of road casualty was in fact young female drivers/passengers!

Horse · 06-05-08, 08:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Spin Doctor

Yes, I remember GROW...

I'd do that as far as options, and if that the trainee wants and what I offer don't match up (ie we fail to meld on the "will to do" stage"), then I'd probably recommend a Rapid trackday.

TBH, I think we'd have both 'sorted' it before taking money

The Spin Doctor · 06-05-08, 09:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Horse

TBH, I think we'd have both 'sorted' it before taking money

I like to think so...

...but I can think of one course where in retrospect, I got things completely wrong for the trainee - it really was a track training school (not just a trackday) he was after, because he wanted help on track cornering technique, not "riding bends" on the road - he wasn't in the least interested in all the road-based stuff, but basically wanted to get round the corner as fast as possible!

I think he chose the Bends course because it was cheaper than a track school.

Basically a combination of him providing some misleading info, and me not asking the right questions to prompt the correct answers. Very frustrating day for both of us as it all came out piecemeal over the course of the session.

Horse · 06-05-08, 10:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Spin Doctor

But... I've actually had a guy on DAS loose his rag and shout at me "why don't you just TELL ME WHAT TO DO!" because I was trying to draw answers out of him. That's a mature 35 year old

I had a similar experience with 'one of the UK's leading trainers' who did a Blue Riband with us several years ago.

On his initial assessment he was - I believed - too close behind a car, in a poor position, when there was no chance of overtaking.

So I spent several minutes trying to get him to explain to me how he decided on following positions. And it ended with an outburst like you describe.

Apparently he rode like he did (under 0.5 sec, in-line with the car interior mirror) because he'd been taught to . . .

And we started off discussing skills training Vs self-awareness & development . . .

wasabi · 06-05-08, 23:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Spin Doctor

[/i]We're down to a nature vs nurture argument here - I'm sure the issues are far deeper than simply "a driving problem".I'm also interested that he specifically excludes women from that analysis - I seem to recall a report floating around last year that the fastest growing category of road casualty was in fact young female drivers/passengers!

Anecdotally there has been a massive upsurge in the number of 'chav-ettes' in the local carparks where young female drivers hang about in gangs with hothatches, presuambly to be with the young alpha-males with hot-hatches. You can't fight hormones.

The Spin Doctor · 07-05-08, 06:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Horse

Apparently he rode like he did (under 0.5 sec, in-line with the car interior mirror) because he'd been taught to . . .

And we started off discussing skills training Vs self-awareness & development . . .

I remember you telling me that story... but the point I made earlier holds. He's there by choice (presumably!) and thus open to 'learning' even if his expection of being on the receiving end of the learning precedure was different to your idea of what it should be.

Before you can begin to use the same teaching technique with with novice car drivers, you're going to have to completely re-wire the average 17 yr old's brain. It would be useful to see how successful "self-awareness & development" is as a teaching technique in schools generally.

Horse · 07-05-08, 14:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Horse

It may well be, but as you'll have seen, this is a project to improve driver training - which since ADIs in this country achieve a pass rate of less than 50% could be said to be in need of improvement . . .

Deeper than that, it's working towards learners who learn by themselves rather just doing as they're told. Increasing self-awareness is a major element of that . . .

It's also recently been released that the HPT has had no benefit in reducing the crash involvement of new drivers - the very people who it was introduced for.

Driver testing in this country - and 'higher' still the DSA's assessment of ADIS (and RPMT instructors for that matter) is skills-based: fault recognition, analysis, and correction.

Bang on cue, the Gumment's 'Young Drivers' consultation is published today!

Our research shows that we must make sure that learners demonstrate not only good skills, but also safe attitudes and proper understanding of road conditions before they are allowed to drive unsupervised. We will build improved learning opportunities and assessments to support these standards, as well as strengthen the quality of driving instruction available.

Our proposals include:

A new foundation course, available at schools and colleges, leading to a qualification on safe road use.

A more focused and thorough learning process before the driving test, which focuses not just on vehicle control but also the wider skills needed to be a safe driver, from driving in difficult conditions (for example at night or in poor weather) to learning to predict and respond to other road users' intentions;

A new training syllabus to ensure learners understand what is required of them to become a responsible driver, enable them to undertake structured and efficient learning and accurately assess when they are ready to pass their driving test;

An improved driving test which requires the driver to demonstrate independent driving skills and clear understanding of different situations on the road, with the option of modular assessment;

New opportunities to take extra training post test; working with the insurance industry and employers in the driving for work sector we will develop new courses and qualifications to be taken after the driving test that could lead to lower premiums and a better chance of securing a career in the driving for work sector;

A review of driving instructor training and testing to ensure they provide a quality service and are focussed on those areas of driving performance that are closely linked to safe driving.

The Spin Doctor · 07-05-08, 15:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Horse

Bang on cue, the Gumment's 'Young Drivers' consultation is published today!

Our research shows that we must make sure that learners demonstrate not only good skills, but also safe attitudes and proper understanding of road conditions before they are allowed to drive unsupervised. We will build improved learning opportunities and assessments to support these standards, as well as strengthen the quality of driving instruction available.

Our proposals include:

A new foundation course, available at schools and colleges, leading to a qualification on safe road use.

A more focused and thorough learning process before the driving test, which focuses not just on vehicle control but also the wider skills needed to be a safe driver, from driving in difficult conditions (for example at night or in poor weather) to learning to predict and respond to other road users' intentions;

A new training syllabus to ensure learners understand what is required of them to become a responsible driver, enable them to undertake structured and efficient learning and accurately assess when they are ready to pass their driving test;

An improved driving test which requires the driver to demonstrate independent driving skills and clear understanding of different situations on the road, with the option of modular assessment;

New opportunities to take extra training post test; working with the insurance industry and employers in the driving for work sector we will develop new courses and qualifications to be taken after the driving test that could lead to lower premiums and a better chance of securing a career in the driving for work sector;

A review of driving instructor training and testing to ensure they provide a quality service and are focussed on those areas of driving performance that are closely linked to safe driving.

And will it do any good whatsoever?

Somehow I doubt it will change attitudes.

tfdodo · 07-05-08, 16:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Spin Doctor

And will it do any good whatsoever?...

IT WILL be fit for purpose. Where the purpose will be "to be seen to do something whilst upsetting as few voters as possible & spending as little money"*.

So it depends on what you mean by "do any good"... but I think any attempt to "do any good" in a context that you, I or most Staying_Alive regulars would recognise will get timed out as too unpopular [restrict access to 120mph 1-tonne killing machines to those sufficiently mature to conduct them responsibly] or too expensive [imbue sense of social reponsibility in 18-year-olds that is stronger than hormonal idiocy ] or both.

*well having seen a few recent fiascos maybe not even that , but that will be what they're aiming for...

Ho hum, just have to put the fear of Death into them with some gruesome photos then. Shucks, that wont work, they 'know' they're immortal at 18

Horse · 07-05-08, 18:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Spin Doctor

Somehow I doubt it will change attitudes.

Hasn't changed yours, then?

The Spin Doctor · 08-05-08, 07:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by tfdodo

IT WILL be fit for purpose. Where the purpose will be "to be seen to do something whilst upsetting as few voters as possible & spending as little money"*.

I think that's the real reason for most of these kind of initiatives. It also leads inexorably to ever stricter legislation.

Quote:

...too unpopular [restrict access to 120mph 1-tonne killing machines to those sufficiently mature to conduct them responsibly] or too expensive [imbue sense of social reponsibility in 18-year-olds that is stronger than hormonal idiocy ] or both.

But I think fairly obviously bikes are at risk from legislation - we're a minority group, and the majority of people driving 140mph 4x4s that weigh a couple of tonnes will think it eminantly reasonable that loony bikers should be restricted to 75mph 125s!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Horse

Hasn't changed yours, then?

Quite frankly, no.

Nothing in there tells me that there is ANY evidence that it will be effective. It's just a statement of "what we will do, and so will you".

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Voyager (07-05-08)

"John Whitmore: Help yourself to better driving" thread in "Staying Alive" Originally Posted by wasabi Horse mentioned 'do a trackday' as a piece of potentially unhelpful advice... I do still wonder about making motocrossing a part ...

Thread Tags: advice, driving, john whitmore

"John Whitmore: Help yourself to better driving" thread in "Staying Alive"
Originally Posted by wasabi Horse mentioned 'do a trackday' as a piece of potentially unhelpful advice... I do still wonder about making motocrossing a part ...