Hampshire lane clearing - 26th July.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by cb750chris

The thing is, How are voluntary restrictions communicated to the "general public", after all a great number (myself included previously) would not ride a lane if requested to avoid it for a valid reason - e.g after a lot of rain.
However just working with the TRF is not good enough, (as I wasn't in the TRF until a few weeks ago), we need clear signs/notices ASKING people, not telling people.

Like these you mean?



Oddly they DON'T just work with the TRF, they ask ALL vehicular user groups to avoid using it during times when damage may occur.

More info here:
http://www.laragb.org/pages/vr.html#vol-rest

[cb750chris]

Originally Posted by jazzy

It's good to hear that the voluntary restriction has worked, quite often cited by the antis as not working in their support of unfair TROs

How are voluntary restrictions communicated though? Until recently I was not a member of the TRF, and just used the definitive map online to plan routes. This just lists "5 ways" as TRO'd to Vehicles with 4 or more wheels - nothing about a voluntary restriction. Is there anything on the end of the lane? Although by this point it is perhaps a little on the late side, as if I had made a journey to get there, having checked online, then I would possibly ride it anyway, thus defeating the TRF being voluntary restrictive.

I also found the online map to be very poor in practice, as in several places the info given was just plain misleading - e.g Halnaker Lane and Salt Hill (BOAT 42). The online map reports it as TRO'd to Motor Vehicles with 3 or more wheels, the TRO page lists it as any motor vehicle. Perhaps the TRF also needs to devote time to campainging to keep information up to date?

[cb750chris]

Originally Posted by Adam

Like these you mean?



Oddly they DON'T just work with the TRF, they ask ALL vehicular user groups to avoid using it during times when damage may occur.

More info here:
Voluntary Restraint

Perhaps the VR wasn't in force last time I was up there? I didn't see anything like this. (but generally avoided 5 ways as it was just plain too boggy when I was out on my own)
Re-reading what I posted perviously, I sounded a bit more scathing of the method when I asked about just the TRF, but the point still remains, How does a person (not in a club) know about these until they arrive at a lane. I had never heard of LARA before, And there is nothing on the definitive map detailing this.
Not wanting to sound too idelaistic, but more info needs to be readily available to non-club members to assist them in making the right choices BEFORE they spoil it for club members.
Edit
I hope people don't take me as being anti-TRF etc. It is more Winchester Council what need to do something / get thier act together in this case.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by cb750chris

How are voluntary restrictions communicated though? Until recently I was not a member of the TRF, and just used the definitive map online to plan routes.

Me too. That and TrailWise - The National Catalogue of Rights of Way which anyone can use.

This just lists "5 ways" as TRO'd to Vehicles with 4 or more wheels - nothing about a voluntary restriction.

Why would it? The VR is nothing to do with HCC.

Is there anything on the end of the lane?

As per my last post.

Although by this point it is perhaps a little on the late side, as if I had made a journey to get there, having checked online, then I would possibly ride it anyway, thus defeating the TRF being voluntary restrictive.

Hence it being voluntary. The choice is yours.

I also found the online map to be very poor in practice, as in several places the info given was just plain misleading - e.g Halnaker Lane and Salt Hill (BOAT 42). The online map reports it as TRO'd to Motor Vehicles with 3 or more wheels, the TRO page lists it as any motor vehicle. Perhaps the TRF also needs to devote time to campainging to keep information up to date?

The difference between the map and the list of TROs is because Halnaker WAS TRO to 3 wheel or more and is now (as of this year) TRO to all. The map has not been updated yet.
It isn't (and states it isn't) the definitive map. It is merely an extract of. They don't have the time and money to update two copies of the map so the online one is purely a guide. If you want the definative answer, yuse the definative map, where the information should be up to date.
The list of TRO's take a loss less effort to keep up to date so is usually up to date online. Again the only way to know for sure is a visit to the council tho, however give em a bell and they will generally tell you of any new closures.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by cb750chris

Perhaps the VR wasn't in force last time I was up there? I didn't see anything like this. (but generally avoided 5 ways as it was just plain too boggy when I was out on my own)

It probably wasn't. It takes a awhile to organise as landowner permission must be gained, in writing, before signs can be posted. If the trail crosses multiple owners land, then it takes even longer.

Re-reading what I posted perviously, I sounded a bit more scathing of the method when I asked about just the TRF, but the point still remains, How does a person (not in a club) know about these until they arrive at a lane. I had never heard of LARA before, And there is nothing on the definitive map detailing this.

Not wanting to sound too idelaistic, but more info needs to be readily available to non-club members to assist them in making the right choices BEFORE they spoil it for club members.

How do you suggest they inform non members who don't even check the definative map before they ride, but just follow the BOAT symbols on an OS map and hope for the best. (That would be most TRF members let alone non members technique btw.)
Local TV?
Papers?
Adverts in TBM?


All a tad hit and miss. There's not much doubt with a sign on the track is there.

Edit
I hope people don't take me as being anti-TRF etc. It is more Winchester Council what need to do something / get thier act together in this case.

Like I said, it's nothing to do with the council. It's USER GROUP led. In this case LARA being the organisiation representing all vehicular user groups.

[cb750chris]

Not gonna argue, 'cos I think we both coming from pretty much the same view point.

I just think it would be easier to get people to "play the game" by making better information available to all, and all in one place, in a manner which is easy to use.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by cb750chris

Not gonna argue, 'cos I think we both coming from pretty much the same view point.

You asked how a VR is made known - I showed you.
You suggested they put up signs to let non TRF members know - I showed you they do (well to let EVERYONE know really, TRF members don't have ESP).
You suggested they used the council website to let people know - I told you it's nothing to do with the council so they don't feel obliged to let people know, and even if they did the vast majority of green laners don't look at the council website befor ehtey ride.
You suggested they use other means to let people know - I asked what do you suggest.

Where's the argument?

[Adam]

Originally Posted by cb750chris

I just think it would be easier to get people to "play the game" by making better information available to all, and all in one place, in a manner which is easy to use.

Again, how do you suggest that happens?
How are you going to let people know a lane is subject to VR other than sticking a sign on the end of it?

I'm sure we can all sit there coming up with problems and suggesting no solutions.

[Julian_Boolean]

Originally Posted by Adam

, TRF members don't have ESP

I thought it came in the envelope, that's £30 I've wasted now, I was really counting on the ESP, along with the instant list of lanes I could ride but didn't know about.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Julian_Boolean

I thought it came in the envelope, that's £30 I've wasted now, I was really counting on the ESP, along with the instant list of lanes I could ride but didn't know about.

No instant list mate, but have a word with Richard Sugden on either the TRF main forum or the TBM forum. He will happily compare notes on what you know and what he knows.
You are very lucky in that he is in Cambridges but take a a very active interest in the whole of East Anglia, and just happens to be the TRF's ROW advisor for the Eastern Area and very effective at the job.

[cb750chris]

Originally Posted by Adam

You suggested they put up signs to let non TRF members know - I showed you they do (well to let EVERYONE know really, TRF members don't have ESP).

Like I said, I hadn't seen them, but probably haven't been up since they were put up. My Bad

Originally Posted by Adam

You suggested they use other means to let people know - I asked what do you suggest.

I don't know, the only thing I can suggest is if all the info is in one place, then there is more chance of people seeing it (only if they look though - as you rightly comment)? Again not much help really

[Julian_Boolean]

Originally Posted by Adam

No instant list mate, but have a word with Richard Sugden on either the TRF main forum or the TBM forum. He will happily compare notes on what you know and what he knows.
You are very lucky in that he is in Cambridges but take a a very active interest in the whole of East Anglia, and just happens to be the TRF's ROW advisor for the Eastern Area and very effective at the job.

I wasn't expecting a list , we were planning a route last night for Sunday and we've got so many lanes on it I doubt if we'll ride them all and that was with leaving some out, they're all on about half of a 1:50000 Landranger, the TRF round here do a really good job, I could spend 5 days trail riding locally and not do the same lanes twice.

Actually last time I compared notes with Suffolk TRF I discovered some RUPPs I'd been riding had no vehicular right of way, ignorance can be bliss but ignorant doesn't equal innocent.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by cb750chris

Like I said, I hadn't seen them, but probably haven't been up since they were put up. My Bad

I don't know, the only thing I can suggest is if all the info is in one place, then there is more chance of people seeing it (only if they look though - as you rightly comment)?

Surely if you put the info in lots of places there are more chances of seeing it than placing it in just one for them to not bother/realise to look?
But if the signs are in place at the start of the trails, it is still the only place you can guarantee people seeing it.


As it happens, your idea is the whole point of trailwise. A National catalogue of all ROW and any TRO/VR/Obstructions etc effecting them. Unfortuntely it relies on the users to keep it up to date.

[Adam]

Thanks for coming today guys. It was much appreciated by the organisers and can only help to keep us onside with the locals.