Broadband tax 'to be made law'

**coulson73** · 24-09-09 09:09

BT's 21CN network has already been rolled out and has been tested extensively, by both BT and loads of other ISPs.

However, of the isps that have moved over the customers on to 21CN, they are still keeping the customers on teh up to 8mb service. This is to test the stability of the service on the new network.
Very few ISP's have actually moved their customers onto the upto 20mb service though and currently it is only BT that are actively pushing this (well it is their kit so they need to try to push it). However, Plusnet who are owned by BT and run over on BT's network (as virtually all ISPs do baring Virgin over Fibre and mobile broadband) are not advertising it massively.

So do you think there are a few issues with their 21CN infrastructure

Eventually everyone who use bt's kit will be forced to move over to the 21CN, whether any issues are still outstanding or not

The next stage will then be to provide Fibre to the green cabs, then running over copper to the customers premises.
The final stage will be fibre to the premises, though how long that is down the line is anyones guess.

It's true the OFCOM dictate what BT have to do, however, to get the infrastucture built to provide what OFCOM want will cost a lot more than will be raised in the new tax.

Any one want to take a stab in the dark how much it will cost to lay fibre cable from all the BT excahgnes to all the Green cabs in the streets. It's not just the cost of the fibre, but the cost of the license to dig up the roads, the costs of actually digging up the roads, laying the trunking, then laying the fibre and connecting it all up and testing it is actually going to work.

**Dai** · 24-09-09 09:09

Government grasp of technology summed up in 5 words, when discussing high speed broadband, "It is full steam ahead"

**Jody** · 24-09-09 09:12

Ok maybe I'm a bit thick or naive but...

BT is a private company

BT maintain the lines

So how can the government put a tax on BT's services to improve the phone lines? surely it'll be BT that replaces / upgrades them!! or is the government going to hand over £175m to BT every year??

**waxy88** · 24-09-09 09:13

Originally Posted by go_slow

I think most people are missing the point of this. Having a good broadband architecture in this country is the way forward. Commercially its not good sense to run fibre out to remote communities so that part of the infrastructure needs to be funded somehow so that everyone has access to a good level of broadband.

Without that access for everyone then people will miss out. You talk about goverment spending, how much could be saved with services accessible online, quality of life for people since they would be able to work from home and/or do most of their interaction with government online also.

Not at all. It is simply ANOTHER tax. Another tax that can be raised quietly to increase revenue.

And I am pretty sure we already pay VAT on our broadband.

Perhaps the Government could find £175m by getting rid of some of the inflated public sector. Or possibly they could stop using tax revenue to keep the public sector pension funds nice and buoyant. Or hey...here is a crazy idea, stop offering benefits straight away to anyone that arrives on our shores whilst their case is considered...for years.

**Dai** · 24-09-09 09:16

Originally Posted by coulson73

...Any one want to take a stab in the dark how much it will cost to lay fibre cable from all the BT excahgnes to all the Green cabs in the streets. It's not just the cost of the fibre, but the cost of the license to dig up the roads, the costs of actually digging up the roads, laying the trunking, then laying the fibre and connecting it all up and testing it is actually going to work.

Well over a decade of 50p a month taxes.

go_slow, I think there's general agreement that high speed broadband would contribute to the economy, but it's the implementation that is the problem. As coulson has alluded to above, the cost of getting the high speed to the door is the issue, be that using radio, satellite or fibre as a transmission media.

Remember the Government made astronomical amounts out of the 3G auctions and they think that could be repeated for other spectrum. The mobile companies are now trying to consolidate and recoup that money somewhere. Bad long term policy from all involved.

**coulson73** · 24-09-09 09:17

Originally Posted by Jody

Ok maybe I'm a bit thick or naive but...

BT is a private company

BT maintain the lines

So how can the government put a tax on BT's services to improve the phone lines? surely it'll be BT that replaces / upgrades them!! or is the government going to hand over £175m to BT every year??

And that is like most Government policies in that they haven't decided yet, or have failed t release the small print and let everyone know what is actually happening.
They have had a 'great idea'....tax everyone more, and say it is for a specific project, but don't tell everyone how that money is going to be spent on this project or if it is all going to be spent on this project

**Tomcat** · 24-09-09 09:21

Originally Posted by Dai

I think there's general agreement that high speed broadband would contribute to the economy.

How? Geniune Q.

**mrlongbeard** · 24-09-09 09:25

Originally Posted by coulson73

Any one want to take a stab in the dark how much it will cost to lay fibre cable from all the BT excahgnes to all the Green cabs in the streets. It's not just the cost of the fibre, but the cost of the license to dig up the roads, the costs of actually digging up the roads, laying the trunking, then laying the fibre and connecting it all up and testing it is actually going to work.

Can they not tie the new glass to the old copper lines and give them a pull from the other end?

**waxy88** · 24-09-09 09:26

Originally Posted by Tomcat

How? Geniune Q.

Everyone will be able to download British made pron really quickly.

**Wreckless Rat** · 24-09-09 09:28

21CN is not everwhere yet, it is still 'rolling out'

**Anna Key** · 24-09-09 09:29

So if I get rid of my landline phone and only have a mobile phone, will I still have to pay?

**Bonners** · 24-09-09 09:31

Originally Posted by Jody

Ok maybe I'm a bit thick or naive but...

BT is a private company

BT maintain the lines

So how can the government put a tax on BT's services to improve the phone lines? surely it'll be BT that replaces / upgrades them!! or is the government going to hand over £175m to BT every year??

I dont even pretend to understand the whole complicated story, but it goes something like this. Apart from Virgin broadband every supplier of broadband goes through the BT network. Although BT is a prviate company it is regulated in what it can charge the other companies that use its infrastructure. Bt's complaint is that it will cost billions to upgrade to a decent structure and why should it pay all the cost when other companies will reap the benefit?

As far as I can tell this tax is a fudge from the government in response to this. But, the amounts it will raise are pitiful and will only be used to get the whole country up to an 8 meg connection, which is a bit pitiful when Virgin is on the point of rolling out a 50meg connection across its network. The trouble is this tax will not address the issue of what to do with the final bit of the network, i.e. the copper wiring.

So in my book it is a fudge and the money raised will be a drop in the ocean as to what is actually needed.

**Lostboy** · 24-09-09 09:32

Originally Posted by go_slow

I think most people are missing the point of this. Having a good broadband architecture in this country is the way forward. Commercially its not good sense to run fibre out to remote communities so that part of the infrastructure needs to be funded somehow so that everyone has access to a good level of broadband.

Without that access for everyone then people will miss out. You talk about goverment spending, how much could be saved with services accessible online, quality of life for people since they would be able to work from home and/or do most of their interaction with government online also.

Erm no. I think you're missing the point completely. We all understand that and the government has committed to that. What's happened is that it's now found it hasn't got the money to do it 'cos it spunked it (OURS!) on some failing businesses (who won't lend them the money back to pay for the infrastructure). So in effect, having already paid for it twice, they're now asking us to pay for it again!!! And, as has already been pointed out, £175m is nowhere near enough and is available from other sources anyway.

**coulson73** · 24-09-09 09:34

Originally Posted by mrlongbeard

Can they not tie the new glass to the old copper lines and give them a pull from the other end?

Don't think that is is quite as simple as that, would be ok if it was.

As the Fibre is more fragile than the copper cables, it need to be placed in trunking and can't just be laid in the ground like a lot of the cables would have been done in the past.
so the trunking will need to be laid down first, then the fibre in the trunking.
Plus all the other cables, pipes etc that have been laid over the years, I'm sure it would get snaged up pretty easily and then split and will then need to be either repaired or pulled out and new fibre replaced.

**go_slow** · 24-09-09 09:34

Originally Posted by Tomcat

How? Geniune Q.

Education - delivery of that to the home to allow anyone, not just kids, access to further learning
Goverment service delivery - think of how many government services you deal with that could be better delivered over the internet. Being able to tax your vehicle online is only the tip of the iceberg.
Business delivery - being able to access UK businesses online would promote competition and provide a better choice for the consumer.
Home access - think of the number of people that work irregular hours or are limited in their ability to leave home, having broad band gives them more access and thus a better quality of life.

Think of broadband as the modern equivalent of the building of the canals and road network in this country - prior to that you were limited in where you could go, what you could buy and what market there was for what you produced.

Broadband tax 'to be made law'

BT's 21CN network has already been rolled out and has been tested extensively, by both BT and loads of other ISPs. However, of the isps ...

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