Climate change is a religious belief

go_slow · 10-09-09, 08:53

Good to see the brain washing is working so well

Company fights climate change ruling by employment tribunal | UK news | The Guardian

Quote:

A controversial tribunal decision that some company practices can discriminate against employees with strongly held views on climate change will be challenged in the courts.
Senior executive Tim Nicholson claimed he was unfairly dismissed by a property investment company because his views on the environment conflicted with other managers' "contempt for the need to cut carbon emissions".
In the first case of its kind, an employment tribunal decided that Nicholson, 41, had views amounting to a "philosophical belief in climate change", allowing him the same legal protection against discrimination as religious beliefs.
Nicholson, the former head of sustainability at Newcastle-based Grainger plc, says he was dismissed after disagreeing with practices including an instance where an IT worker was flown from London to Ireland to collect his BlackBerry, and another where Nicholson's attempts to obtain data to develop a carbon management strategy were blocked.
Despite having written policies on the environment, Grainger executives attended meetings in "some of the most highly polluting cars on the road", Nicholson claimed.
"[My belief] affects how I live my life including my choice of home, how I travel, what I buy, what I eat and drink, what I do with my waste, and my hopes and fears," he said. "For example, I no longer travel by plane, I have eco-renovated my home, I compost my food waste and encourage others to reduce their carbon emissions."
Judge David Sneath said at the employment tribunal: "[Nicholson] has certain views about climate change and acts upon those views in the way in which he leads his life. In my judgment his belief goes beyond a mere opinion."
The decision, which is being challenged by the company, comes two years after the law on religious discrimination was changed so that beliefs no longer had to be "similar" to religious faith to receive protection in the workplace.
Under the new law "philosophical belief" is protected by the law alongside religious belief if it passes a legal test requiring it to be cogent, serious and "worthy of respect in a democratic society".
The case has attracted criticism from some, however, who argue that the removal of the requirement that beliefs are "similar" to religious faith will create a potential minefield for employers.
Caroline Doran, employment partner at London solicitors Sprecher Grier Halberstam, said: "The removal of the word similar has [also] led to a range of employment litigation to determine whether patriotism or loyalty to a flag or support for the British National party are covered as suitable beliefs.
"This … may create an abundance of litigation in the future as the tribunals will have to weigh an individual's belief against the yardstick of current popular thinking."
Nicholson's lawyer said that the case reflected a necessary clarification of the law that would affect large numbers of employees.
"This is a case that will clarify the law for the ever-increasing numbers of people who take a philosophical stance on the environment and climate change, and who lead their lives according to those principles", said Shah Qureshi, head of employment law at solicitors Bindmans.
"These are often deeply held views based on the premise that without change humanity will suffer … people should be able to express such views without fear of retribution or discrimination."

Meanwhile new scientist reports that the world climate could cool - World's climate could cool first, warm later - environment - 04 September 2009 - New Scientist - so the last laugh could be with those who questioned the basis of the prediction on climate change and global warming.

SO, do you believe in climate change? Poll coming.

Little Vix Pink · 10-09-09, 09:08

I had bangers and mash last night. Omnomnom.

Isn't it a little more sensible to look at what has happened in the past? I.e. all this is almost certainly part of the earth's natural warm-cold cycle? I am, however, convinced that we're speeding it up, there is a lot of evidence to suggest that we are - and we should be cutting out stuff that is bad for the planet anyway shouldn't we?

RiceBurner · 10-09-09, 09:11

I suppose it does prompt the question that if you errr, accept the publised information about something like "climate change", what are you doing, other than "believing" it??

Or is there a difference in "believing something that could be factual", and "believing IN something that could be factual".

Surely "belief", in a religious sense, is another way of describing "faith", which could be defined as "accepting something you can't prove". Whereas something based on scientific research is most definitely something that CAN be proven, which therefore means you can't have "faith" in climate change, which means you can't "believe" in it either.

You either accept it as scientific fact, or you don't, it's not a "belief".

Editor · 10-09-09, 10:07

That's some piece of legislation. I think it needs challenging.

murcan · 19-09-09, 23:35

I think the guy should get compensation from the company because they fired him for believing something that millions think is true. But I don't think the premis of whether it qualifies as a philosophy and is similar to religious belief should have been raised. It's a matter of free thought, freedom of expression and free speech. Besides which the preponderence of data supports this guy, not his company.

protoborg · 19-09-09, 23:42

The point is that over the expanse of history the climate has never been constant. That it has been more stable in recent times is an anomaly

MyLittleStudPony · 20-09-09, 01:08

I cannot believe that result. Unfortunatly it's real and it's about to fuck us all in the arse.

protoborg · 20-09-09, 01:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by MyLittleStudPony

I cannot believe that result. Unfortunatly it's real and it's about to fuck us all in the arse.

Don't bend over then !

hawker · 20-09-09, 14:39

He's fully entitled to his opinion, but until he controls the company he has no right to affect the policies however much he dislikes them. But then if he was genuinely sacked for his differing opinion, then the company should lose the case. Even if he has been shafting the bosses' wives they would need to find a genuine reason for dismissing him.

Oh yeah, and what Riceburner said.

moto748 · 20-09-09, 17:08

Unlike most posters here (judging by the poll results), I don't claim to know better than the overwhelming majority of world-wide scientific opinion on the matter.

And if you want to look at the cui bono argument, it seems clear to me that if, as some claim, it's a plot to fool the gullible, well, powerful big business interests, and, indeed, governments, would surely prefer it if we didn't have anything to worry about. If global warming is a reality, businesses are going to have to change their ways, in many cases at great expense, and governments are going to have to take measures which are bound to be unpopular. Which, being in the business of getting re-elected, politicians are never keen to do.

As I've argued before, it seems to me that the analogy is with smoking causing cancer. For many years, people didn't believe it, because it suited them not to. Until the scientific evidence became overwhelming.

protoborg · 20-09-09, 18:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by moto748

Unlike most posters here (judging by the poll results), I don't claim to know better than the overwhelming majority of world-wide scientific opinion on the matter.

And if you want to look at the cui bono argument, it seems clear to me that if, as some claim, it's a plot to fool the gullible, well, powerful big business interests, and, indeed, governments, would surely prefer it if we didn't have anything to worry about. If global warming is a reality, businesses are going to have to change their ways, in many cases at great expense, and governments are going to have to take measures which are bound to be unpopular. Which, being in the business of getting re-elected, politicians are never keen to do.

As I've argued before, it seems to me that the analogy is with smoking causing cancer. For many years, people didn't believe it, because it suited them not to. Until the scientific evidence became overwhelming.

The analogy is that you've believed a particular line and what you've said is all based on that belief. Some like me don't believe that particular line so without the disputed cornerstone the edifice collapses in on itself.

Kyot · 20-09-09, 18:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by moto748

Unlike most posters here (judging by the poll results), I don't claim to know better than the overwhelming majority of world-wide scientific opinion on the matter.
....

As I've argued before, it seems to me that the analogy is with smoking causing cancer. For many years, people didn't believe it, because it suited them not to. Until the scientific evidence became overwhelming.

it's a good point.
I actually worked for one of the project scientists on ENVISAT. When it was being designed (mid 90's) no one "believed" in climate change. There was some debate (both warming and cooling) but he, and people I met in ESA and other geophysicists, found nothing conclusive from the evidence of the day... Since then the weight of evidence and opinion has shifted in the community, and a mass of new measurements and models have been accumulated... Part of the problem is that the general public don't see - and, in all fairness, would find hard to follow - the developing scientific debate. The scientific evidence is now overwhelming... but there is a lot of tough detail (i.e. there are obviously natural warming and cooling events and trends) so the press and population can always cherry pick "evidence" to support what ever kind of stance they want. However, the scientists in the field don't cherry pick, they assimilate.

It is the cherry picking of evidence to support / defeat one's preexisting attitude (you believe or don't believe some particular line, both ways) that is like religion....

moto748 · 20-09-09, 18:33

Well, I don't know about your use of the word "line", but for your argument to be valid, as far as I can see, you need to believe there is equivalence and equal validity between your opinion and that of the world's leading scientists. I don't share that view. As the man said, opinions are like arseholes; everyone's got one. That doesn't mean that everyone's opinion is equally worthwhile.

[edit] That was to protoborg, obviously.

saga_lout · 20-09-09, 19:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by moto748

...governments, would surely prefer it if we didn't have anything to worry about...

Oh dear, you have a lot to learn about the way of the world. The chief task of any government is to keep the population permanently scared. Then to provide "solutions" to those scares. If the proles didn't have anything to worry about they might just start to wonder what they need a government for. In particular, they might start to wonder why they need such an expensive government, one that spends half of all the money they earn.

On the subject of ~~global warming~~ climate change, the scientists have flip flopped from warming scares to cooling scares and back again almost at the drop of a thermometer.
Climate Change Timeline – 1895-2009 But Now You Know shows how the consensus has changed since the end of the 19th century. Do you blame me for being sceptical?

moto748 · 20-09-09, 19:32

As always, it's a pleasure to be patronised by you.

If global warming/climate change is a load of bollocks, and if most people think so, why don't opposition parties all over the world say so, and get swept to power at the next elections?

View Poll Results: You position on climate change
CLimate change is real and anyone who does not beleive is a heretic	1	5.26%
I think climate change is a real but not to the point of religious zeal	5	26.32%
I'm almost convinced on climate change is real but have some doubts	2	10.53%
I'm almost convinced that climate change is not real but have some doubts	0	0%
There is no such thing as climate change, its the earths natural rhythm	10	52.63%
Bangers and mash for me tea, I can't wait	1	5.26%
Voters: 19. You may not vote on this poll

10-09-09, 09:08	#2
Little Vix Pink Go Go Gadget Legs Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Sunny Warwickshire Posts: 4,542 Cash: £3009300 Blog Entries: 2 Thanks: 270 Thanked: 52/49	Re: Climate change is a religious belief I had bangers and mash last night. Omnomnom. Isn't it a little more sensible to look at what has happened in the past? I.e. all this is almost certainly part of the earth's natural warm-cold cycle? I am, however, convinced that we're speeding it up, there is a lot of evidence to suggest that we are - and we should be cutting out stuff that is bad for the planet anyway shouldn't we?
	Musketeer.

10-09-09, 09:11	#3
RiceBurner Great Prophet of Veedism Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Hiding in your blind spot... Posts: 8,874 Cash: £1459200 Thanks: 180 Thanked: 206/176	Re: Climate change is a religious belief I suppose it does prompt the question that if you errr, accept the publised information about something like "climate change", what are you doing, other than "believing" it?? Or is there a difference in "believing something that could be factual", and "believing IN something that could be factual". Surely "belief", in a religious sense, is another way of describing "faith", which could be defined as "accepting something you can't prove". Whereas something based on scientific research is most definitely something that CAN be proven, which therefore means you can't have "faith" in climate change, which means you can't "believe" in it either. You either accept it as scientific fact, or you don't, it's not a "belief".
	non quod, sed quomodo

10-09-09, 10:07	#4
Editor Should Get Out More Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: in Robin Hood's doghouse. Posts: 5,201 Cash: £1958450 Blog Entries: 11 Thanks: 160 Thanked: 46/46	Re: Climate change is a religious belief That's some piece of legislation. I think it needs challenging.
	[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC] BOB Crufts 2008 & Loose Shoes www.bayingbasset.com

19-09-09, 23:35	#5
murcan Should Get Out More Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Rhode Island, the quahaug state. Posts: 6,865 Cash: £1769300 Thanks: 35 Thanked: 66/53	Re: Climate change is a religious belief I think the guy should get compensation from the company because they fired him for believing something that millions think is true. But I don't think the premis of whether it qualifies as a philosophy and is similar to religious belief should have been raised. It's a matter of free thought, freedom of expression and free speech. Besides which the preponderence of data supports this guy, not his company.
	DCProofrock, A true 'Murcan. Land of the Home, Free of the Brave. cogito ergo zoom


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19-09-09, 23:42	#6
protoborg Clunk Clique Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: weetabix gone city Posts: 11,021 Cash: £2085000 Blog Entries: 1 Thanks: 88 Thanked: 69/66	Re: Climate change is a religious belief The point is that over the expanse of history the climate has never been constant. That it has been more stable in recent times is an anomaly
	*The Cardiomyopathy Association* a heart muscle research leader http://www.cardiomyopathy.org Accelerated ageing made easy

20-09-09, 01:08	#7
MyLittleStudPony We're all wizards Join Date: Dec 2007 Posts: 14,984 Cash: £2837748 Thanks: 188 Thanked: 201/173	Re: Climate change is a religious belief I cannot believe that result. Unfortunatly it's real and it's about to fuck us all in the arse.
	Lying outrageously on the internet since 2002.

20-09-09, 14:39	#9
hawker Really Bored Tournaments Won: 1 Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Epicentre of the universe... Posts: 2,953 Cash: £3175106 Thanks: 62 Thanked: 16/15	Re: Climate change is a religious belief He's fully entitled to his opinion, but until he controls the company he has no right to affect the policies however much he dislikes them. But then if he was genuinely sacked for his differing opinion, then the company should lose the case. Even if he has been shafting the bosses' wives they would need to find a genuine reason for dismissing him. Oh yeah, and what Riceburner said.

20-09-09, 17:08	#10
moto748 Really Bored Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Wiltshire Posts: 2,493 Cash: £2987451 Thanks: 17 Thanked: 8/7	Re: Climate change is a religious belief Unlike most posters here (judging by the poll results), I don't claim to know better than the overwhelming majority of world-wide scientific opinion on the matter. And if you want to look at the cui bono argument, it seems clear to me that if, as some claim, it's a plot to fool the gullible, well, powerful big business interests, and, indeed, governments, would surely prefer it if we didn't have anything to worry about. If global warming is a reality, businesses are going to have to change their ways, in many cases at great expense, and governments are going to have to take measures which are bound to be unpopular. Which, being in the business of getting re-elected, politicians are never keen to do. As I've argued before, it seems to me that the analogy is with smoking causing cancer. For many years, people didn't believe it, because it suited them not to. Until the scientific evidence became overwhelming.

20-09-09, 18:33	#13
moto748 Really Bored Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Wiltshire Posts: 2,493 Cash: £2987451 Thanks: 17 Thanked: 8/7	Re: Climate change is a religious belief Well, I don't know about your use of the word "line", but for your argument to be valid, as far as I can see, you need to believe there is equivalence and equal validity between your opinion and that of the world's leading scientists. I don't share that view. As the man said, opinions are like arseholes; everyone's got one. That doesn't mean that everyone's opinion is equally worthwhile. [edit] That was to protoborg, obviously.

20-09-09, 19:32	#15
moto748 Really Bored Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Wiltshire Posts: 2,493 Cash: £2987451 Thanks: 17 Thanked: 8/7	Re: Climate change is a religious belief As always, it's a pleasure to be patronised by you. If global warming/climate change is a load of bollocks, and if most people think so, why don't opposition parties all over the world say so, and get swept to power at the next elections?

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Climate change is a religious belief

Good to see the brain washing is working so well Company fights climate change ruling by employment tribunal | UK news | The Guardian A ...